احمد-نجيب-بياباني-ابراهيمخېل

Why are you adding definitions in English instead of Pashto? - dcljr (خبرې اترې) 00:42, 18 جولای 2013 (UTC)

Please add definitions in Pashto and not English

Hello, This is Pashto Wiktionary. Post English language definitions to the English Wiktionary. Not here. Thank you , . Jagwar (خبرې اترې) 22:29, 9 اګسټ 2013 (UTC)

This Wiktionary is not formatted correctly

Please see my comment at m:Talk:Small Wiki Monitoring Team#Pashto Wiktionary and reply there. - dcljr (خبرې اترې) 11:55, 25 اګسټ 2013 (UTC)

Cleanup

The following text has been copied from m:Talk:Small Wiki Monitoring Team#Pashto Wiktionary (links have been updated to work on this wiki, and the "left-to-right" formatting has been "forced" to work the same as on an English wiki.)

I guess this isn't exactly what this group was formed to handle, but it's close — and the only other places I could think to post this were at the English Wiktionary and the English Wikipedia, neither of which would probably welcome a long message about this. (Not knowing how to read Pashto, I couldn't even figure out where to post about this at the Pashto Wikipedia.)

For about 10 months now, the Pashto Wiktionary has been steadily growing from below ۱٬۰۰۰ entries to over ۲۱٬۵۰۰ today. Problem is, the majority of the entries seem to be written as if it's a big "Pashto-to-X" dictionary, instead of an "X-to-Pashto" dictionary, as Wiktionaries are supposed to be.

By way of an example, consider the most recently created entry, as I type this: "دوګړه". The page contains a header that apparently stands for "English" followed by the definition "N small speck tinny the ward دوکړ is used to emphasis smallness". So, instead of having the (presumably) Pashto word defined in Pashto, it merely lists an English translation under the "English" header. The non-Pashto entries are similarly messed up: the "exit" entry, for example, seems to contain a Pashto definition/translation under the header "پښتو" ("Pashto"), instead of under a header that's the Pashto word for "English". The wiki also contains a large number of Cyrillic entries (for example, "писать"), the vast majority of which are missing definitions entirely, but many of which have "English" and "Pashto" headers, presumably waiting for translations into those languages. This is not how Wiktionaries are supposed to be formatted.

Back in October 2012, I cautioned the three most active editors that the definitions there should be written in Pashto. The first two responded that the Pashto definitions would be added "later". When I went back in July 2013, I asked the wiki's sole admin why English definitions were being added and got no reply (even though he/she has made hundreds of edits since then). Another user left a message about same issue 3 weeks later and also (to my knowledge) has gotten no reply. (Just recently, a new active user has shown up creating exactly the same kind of entries, which kinda makes me suspect this is the same user creating multiple accounts for some reason. But I digress.)

I'm going to point to this comment from a couple of other Wikimedia wikis to try to get some Pashto editors to help "fix" the wiki, but perhaps a cross-wiki admin from this Team can look into this and see if more radical steps might need to be taken (obviously, I would recommend simply talking to the editors first, but what I've done of that so far hasn't seemed to help very much). - dcljr (talk) 11:08, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

This is to notify that I am aware of this issue, what we are doing we are adding all the Pashto terms and expressions that are very important with its translation in English which is widely used. Afterwards we have a plan to add their Pashto meanings and examples. We will also add the words and expressions of other languages with their Pashto meanings. So there is no need of being worried for the project. If there is a universal admin who can transfer the Pashto terms and expressions to the English Wiktionary with their English meaning then there will not be the need to have the English meanings of the Pashto words and expressions in Pashto Wiktionary. But still there will be the need of the definitions in the original language, Pashto. --احمد-نجيب-بياباني-ابراهيمخېل (talk) 20:08, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure you understand what the problem is. The information you're adding can be kept in the wiki if you would just format the entries correctly from the beginning. (Why add the information in the wrong way the first time around, and then correct it later?) Each section heading ("== ... ==", "header" for short) in an entry should identify a language in which the headword (the page title) has a meaning (not simply a translation, since any word in any language can be translated into any other language, but not all words [strings of characters] carry an inherent meaning in every language). The entry "bakery", for example, should have a single header, "انگرېزي" (assuming that's the correct word for the English language), not the word for "Pashto", since the word "bakery" (I'm pretty sure) only has a meaning in English. Note how the French, German, and Spanish Wiktionaries do it, for example ("Anglais", "Englisch", and "Inglés" all mean "English"). Now consider an entry like "پلټونکى", which has 5 different headers. Is that really a word in 5 different languages or is it a word in one language translated into 4 others? Other Wiktionaries allow multiple language headers only when the word actually has a meaning in each of the languages; see, for example, "put" in the English, German, and French Wiktionaries. The English and German Wiktionaries have special sections ("Translations" and "Übersetzungen", respectively) in which they translate each of the meanings into other languages. (French also does translations, in a section called "Traductions", but it's not present in the "put" entry.) Others can tell me if I'm wrong about this, but I'm pretty sure every Wiktionary in every language is supposed to adhere to this basic system (language-name section headings only for languages in which the words carry meaning). - dcljr (talk) 01:24, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

ok now i got your point. From now on we will try to work on this issue but If you could help me with making a translation part where we can enter the different translations of a term or expression as well, I mean if you could build a template with show/hide options where the translations of a term is written in different languages. your help in this regard will be highly appreciated.--احمد-نجيب-بياباني-ابراهيمخېل (talk) 20:06, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

Now, my latest response...

It would be better if a Pashto editor could create the required template(s). I haven't figured out how to make a "collapsed" table (or a collapsed <div> section) here on this wiki, but that can be added to the template later, if needed. My recommendation would be to follow the way most other large Wiktionaries seem to handle translations.

A regular header:

== Translations ==

Followed by an "opening" template (providing an optional parameter for the meaning, or "sense", of the word that's being translated — see en:Template:trans-top, for example):

{{begin translations}}

Then the translations themselves (discussed more below):

* blah
* blah
* blah

Then a closing template:

{{end translations}}

Which just closes the table or <div> element(s) that were opened by the "opening" template.

More complicated formatting (e.g., double-column format, colors, etc.) can be introduced later, as necessary. Of course, all the English above should be converted to Pashto — something I can't do, since I don't know the language.

As for the translation items themselves ("* blah" above), if I were doing this, I'd create a bunch of "language code" templates like Template:en, Template:de, Template:fa, etc., to hold only the language names (in Pashto). [Oh, I see some of these exist already, but I'd make Template:de contain the Pashto name for the German language, not the English name.] That way other templates (like the one I'm about to discuss) can be called using these language codes instead of the language names (which might actually change in some cases, if there is disagreement as to what the "proper" name of a language is in Pashto).

Then I'd create a "translation item" template (with some suitably short but clear name, like "trans" or "tr" in English — but, as with everything else, it should make sense to a Pashto editor). This last template (using "trans" here just for illustration purposes) would be constructed to allow someone to say, for example:

* {{trans|en|inspector}}

to create the simple item:

• انگرېزي: inspector

in the پلټونکى entry (if the colon [:] is not used in Pashto, use whatever punctuation is preferred).

Or:

* {{trans|en|broken|smashed|shattered}}

to create:

• انگرېزي: broken, smashed, shattered

in the (yet to be created) دړ دوړ entry.

Please note that the more complicated the "English translation" is that you want to use here, the more likely it actually belongs on the English Wiktionary instead. For example, I see "abode  habitat  residence  dwelling place  house, guest room  guest house  a guest place situated away from the family house" listed at ويکيسيند:غوښتلي وييونه as the meanings of "ديره". This is the kind of information that should be listed at en:ديره (i.e., the entry for that word in the English Wiktionary — which, by the way, any ordinary user can create over there; you don't need an admin to do it — although you should be careful to follow their conventions for formatting entries, so any pages you create there don't quickly get deleted — you might want to look around in en:Category:Pashto language, if you haven't already). Here at the Pashto Wiktionary, each of the senses/meanings (I count at least three distinct senses, probably more) should be explained in Pashto in a series of list items (#), and then each of those senses can be translated into English and whatever other languages in separate sections below that. (See, for example, the 12 verb senses and 14 noun senses of the English word strike listed at the English Wiktionary; then note how 7 of the verb senses and 4 of the noun senses are translated into other languages in separate "Translations" sections. Notice how it is the "sense" of a word that gets translated, not the word itself, if you know what I mean. Obviously, this is a very difficult undertaking that requires a native Pashto speaker to do right. [Actually, even as a well-educated native English speaker, I find providing definitions of English words at the English Wiktionary a very daunting prospect that I don't like to attempt very often.])

And note, by the way, that multiple-language translation lists like these should probably only be listed in the entries for Pashto words and phrases. In non-Pashto entries, like exit and писать, only translations into Pashto would be presented. (See, for example, the entry for bakery in the French Wiktionary and boulangerie in the English Wiktionary: neither of them include a list of translations into different languages because it is sufficient to simply translate each "foreign" word into the local wiki language alone.) The Pashto Wiktionary should not attempt to translate non-Pashto words into other non-Pashto languages (a Russian word into English, for example) because that's what all the other Wiktionaries are for (in this case, the ones in Russian and English).

I guess I can try to help out with the templates. We should start with the naming of the templates themselves. You can provide "redlinks" to appropriately named templates in your reply (like I did with Template:fa) and I can start to create them, if you want. We can start simple and then hopefully other wiki-savvy Pashto editors can build on them later.

In particular, we'll need:

• Template:begin translations → کينډۍ:_?_
• Template:end translations → کينډۍ:_?_
• Template:trans → کينډۍ:_?_

So... I hope my English is understandable to you. I will be watching this page (with e-mail notifications turned on), so you can reply here. You don't need to use my talk page, unless you want to discuss a totally unrelated matter.

Note: I have wrapped this entire section in a <div lang="en-US" style="direction:ltr"> element. This makes it easier to communicate in left-to-right English, but unfortunately destroys the effectiveness of the standard talk-page colon-indenting (:, ::, :::, etc.) since that wikicode affects the right margin in this wiki, instead of the left. I'm not sure how you want to deal with this issue. One easy way is to simply use horizontal rules (----) between comments. A harder way is to use <p style="left-margin:2em"> (4em, 6em, etc.), as I did in the "copied" text above. - dcljr (خبرې اترې) 08:38, 2 سېپتمبر 2013 (UTC)

OK, it looks like the following templates are being used:

• Template:begin translations → کينډۍ:ژباړې-پورته
• Template:end translations → کينډۍ:trans-bottom
• Template:trans → کينډۍ:t

Regarding the last two template names, "trans-bottom" and "t" will not be understandable to Pashto-only editors. They should probably be renamed to something in Pashto.

As for the problems you asked about at en:User talk:Dcljr#Need some help with this, I'm not sure how to fix them. I see that you've already created Module:links, so you seem to already know more about this than I do. I would guess that the "show"/"hide" labels come from Translatewiki, but I don't have time to find the exact place to change them right now. Maybe later tonight or tomorrow...

For the sake of convenience, here's the message you posted at en:User talk:Dcljr#Need some help with this:

Need some help with this

Hi there I am trying to fix a template for translations but i face certain problems which you can see for yourself here

there are some templates for the codes of the languages missing. also the Hide/Show in the top of the translation bar, is in English language, where can I change it? Any help in this regard will be appreciated. --احمد-نجيب-بياباني-ابراهيمخېل (talk) 02:02, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

By the way, please reply on this wiki, either on this page or at User talk:Dcljr. This will make it easier to follow the discussion. - dcljr (خبرې اترې) 22:12, 15 سېپتمبر 2013 (UTC)

How to change show and hide

OK, I found where the "show" and "hide" labels are coming from: ميډياويکي:Common.js. I see that you already edited that page last year, but I don't think the changes you made actually do what you want them to. I think you need to undo (revert) those changes and instead just change the words "show" and "hide" in the quoted text under "NavBars":

NavBars

var NavigationBarHide = 'hide ▲';
var NavigationBarShow = 'show ▼';

- dcljr (خبرې اترې) 06:12, 18 سېپتمبر 2013 (UTC)

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